In vying for big ponds, many become strained by the pressure to succeed, overexerting themselves to the point that they get swallowed by mental illness or resort to cheating. Meanwhile, the percent of senior Fortune executives with Ivy League degrees has declined since , while the percent with public-university degrees has increased. The most important is for the individual to make an impact in a field that he is interested on, regardless of social pressures and demands.
Unfornutately, our educational system is set up in a way that pushes students to make life changing decisions early on. Very often, they have to make those decisions at an age where they do not have enough life experiences and maturity to know who they are, what really drives them.
After succumbing to social pressures, you end up in a corporate job, keep chasing the promotions and the money, but you are left empty inside. Again, while this is not true for everyone, it has been my personal experience. Very true. I think going to an Ivy can put too much pressure on you to aim toward a very limited definition of success.
I went to an elite magnet high school and then a big state school. It was a very formative experience. If going to an Ivy is like that, then I would absolutely support my future kids going. Excellent Sheep is an excellent book! It really helped when I was struggling to guide my kids through not over-extending themselves in high school.
More should read it. Heya Sam. Sorry to use pretentious Ivy-esque vocabulary. I grew up working on a farm. My college and grad school educations were dirt cheap. Mostly, I wanted to prove to myself that I could make the grade there. But I also loved the guest speakers and all the interesting extras that go with being on an Ivy League campus.
I ended up with a career I love and I work alongside plenty of Ivy Leaguers, making the same salary without the school debt. I felt it was out of reach. They should be ruling the world, right?
But to me, this is misleading. From the outside, to strangers or internet observers, almost everybody is a nobody. And even though I may have ended up in the same career, I would have loved to be the first in my family and in my town to go to the Ivy League.
Part of it was because they cost so much, and my parents were not rich as government employees. The other part of it was not believing I was smart enough or good enough. Nobody is a social worker, educator, doctor, non-profit organizer. All work in banking, consulting, and tech due to money and fake prestige. Our brightest students are encouraged by our most elite universities to use their brains to focus on wealth. Maybe they can expand their purpose. I never went to private school.
But I did manage to graduate valedictorian in my high school class. I was in a very rigorous academic program, IB. There are times where I wonder if I will be a somebody.
But that is a whole another topic. Our interns started this summer. Point is they are all from fairly top schools, surely paying top dollar, and are older than me. All probably in the age range. If they get hired, they will come in at a lower paying position than me still fair compensation.
Nothing against their accomplishments. I would have loved to go to an ivy league school. After all, my university paid for my undergrad and graduate degrees. Props to you for being valedictorian! I also wonder how much family wealth plays a role. I had no guidance. I had to figure out everything on my own. I was lucky I had some great teachers. I did apply to a couple of elite institutions.
Actually the valedictorian two years before me ended up at an elite institution. I had a great profile. Varsity cross country, varsity band freshman year.
Looking back I missed a few things and it was due to not having enough guidance. I was not honest and raw enough. I grew up in a family where you never talked about your challenges or problems or anything really. Honestly, people knew very little about me, even my best friends. Hell, I still cannot talk about it. I could have scored higher, since what I needed was to refine my test taking. But my family had no money. I did go through it. But at the time I was so shy.
My parents are complete introverts and terribly socially awkward. I was afraid of my own shadow. I was so afraid. I was afraid to talk. If I had just shared all the struggles I faced in life and what I had to overcome.
If I had the knowledge I have now, I would have aced it. I had a phenomenal experience in college. I learned so much! Finally broke out my shell. Received great mentorship and pushed myself. It helped I was finally away from my parents. I started taking graduate classes my junior year which technically was my senior year because I graduated in 3 years Seriously. AND I did meet the love of my life at my college. Congrats to you, Savvy. Then the megacorps, as you note, get their interns from the same schools, perpetuating the disparity.
I know two people who by their own accounts fall in this category. They both attended elite Ivy League universities and ended up with over k of debt apiece from undergrad alone. The first one struggled to get a job for 4 years out of school because he felt that most entry level positions were beneath him. The second one still gets paid less than me, and I went to a public university. The ROI is not always there! Hi Ava — I can totally see how after graduating from a school like Harvard, you become much pickier with what job to choose, and therefore could end up underemployed for 4 years!
It still makes for good reading, and I take it for what it is, anecdotal evidence with a hypothesis made by one individual who has already retired! Tell us about yourself and whether you have kids and what educational and career path you took. At the end of the day, this is a happiness blog that can largely be determined by managing expectations.
What if your kid goes to Punahou and ends up a nobody? Sam, if you really want to change the world, start with your kid and put him or her in an underprivileged school district, so that both you and your kid can start affecting change in the communities that need it. Teach tennis there. Work to implement rigorous STEM programs. Tell kids who have no concept of higher education that they can dream big.
Thank you for your kind thoughts and suggestions. Being somebody after all that time and education is something I think about a lot, which is why I am undecided on whether to go to private school route. It seems for the most part, they all pretty much end up in the same positions as kids who go to public school. I have a feeling many of our children would rather have that money and work hard instead at a public school if they had a choice.
So any specific advice is welcome. Please keep the advice and constructive criticism coming! I really enjoy it. If you could also share your thoughts on the topic of this post that would be great.
Oh yeah, and Go Bears! You and I are very similar which is why I really like your blog. I work in financial services as a VP in Investor Relations. As someone who was tiger-parented, I followed the academic path and did the best that I could.
However, I want more for my son who is 3 years old. I want him to be truly extraordinary and to me, that means taking the road less traveled. Truth: I would rather he not go to college and start his own business, or work for a startup, or do anything other than what the mass population does.
I remember Peter Thiel questioning college and why people think they have to go down a certain path to get to where they want. If you know what you want, just do it! That has really resonated with me.
So when my friends talk about sending their kids to college, I am the one rolling my eyes. But I am not pushing it. If I could pay for college on my own, back when I was brought up by middle-class parents, then my son who has way more privilege than I will ever have, can suck it up too.
I plan to inculcate this message into his head: absorb all you can now. I will make sure you get the best education possible, but after 18 years old, you are truly on your own.
Now go make me proud. Almost all of the kids go on to transfer to the best colleges. I kind of feel the same way, because everything can be learned for free nowadays online and four years of college is a lot of time to spend.
Hence, another reason for writing this post and thinking about the irony of spending so much time and money on education know when everything is free. But college was it an incredible time for fun and learning. I actually sympathize a bit. Learn all you can online and stay in your community to be connected to all the other people who are struggling.
And what does that say about the path? The farmers who bring organic squash to high end restaurants are not typical. These are the Peter Thiels of farming. The majority of farmers are undereducated, weather-beaten, and hanging on by a financial thread, doing hard labor until they retire with back problems. He loves the land. Yet, when everything is now free online, as opposed to before the internet, this cost is even more egregious.
I can teach him everything there is to know about real estate and online media without having to go to college for four years. I had the time of my life in college. So fun to meet new folks, learn, and study abroad.
But I only keep in touch with a few people there, and none of them have helped me in my career. They are friends scattered around the country. Now, there are so many great programs i. The alternatives for learning are endless. I want my son to go to college at this moment. Could be still an important education milestone.
Or the entire system might be turned on its head after a huge student loan crisis. Who knows! What I do know is that with proper tutelage, mentorship, and all around nurture, a lot is possible without college today. And I got my current job because my employer came to my graduate school to recruit. Our children will make their own choices as to what is the best route.
You sound amazing and very secure, and I wish more parents were as confident, thoughtful, and well-informed as you seem to be. Keep the power and the strength. They truly educate as opposed to train, which pays dividends far beyond medicine or law or ibanking. I love the last piece of your response, well said Catherine!
They may either feel discouraged or may just be unaware of potential opportunities to better themselves. Not everyone starts the race at the same point, and for that matter the end is different as well. Thanks Ryan. Back when I entered college, I shied away from the Filipino group because I already know about my own culture and had a ton of Filipino friends.
I wanted to befriend people who were different from me. I feel really blessed and want the diversity I cultivated for my son as well. You went to University of Chicago and work in investor relations at Wells Fargo Bank of all the terrible places in the world you could work.
How are you guys spinning the scandal where you guys took advantage of millions of customers by signing them up for fake accounts and charging them for it? How do you justify the head of the department receiving tens of millions For poor oversight? How can you feel good about this? But do whatever makes you happy. Money is not everything. It pisses me off actually, much like people who put my e-mail on a distribution list and when I click to cancel, it asks me to put in my e-mail to cancel.
That time is too precious. The company is working to rebuild trust and not only reaching out to customers to make it right, but advising customers to come in and speak with us for any reason.
Of course, if you think a company is unethical, then steer clear of their services. I respect my peers and the current leadership. We are all working to correct our mistakes. I reiterate that I feel sick about what happened. And you nor most employees are to be blamed for the scandals.
Everyone will reach a certain point where they will no longer feel motivated or have that passion to work for their employer. Props to you for sticking it out with Wells Fargo. I hope you guys can help affect positive change and improve the banking practices.
I was a high school dropout, then went on to get degrees from Emory, Stanford, and Harvard. In my experience, all were great places to go to school, with interesting, well-rounded students from whom I learned as much or more than my professors. These universities also taught me skills I now use daily in my work, as well as critical thinking on a good day at least.
Well-funded schools like these also have great financial aid, which makes cost comparisons difficult. Having said that, plenty of other schools can offer equally good education and experience, and may be more appropriate for a particular child. Tell us how you went to those three excellent schools after dropping out of high school.
That sounds like a fascinating story. Did you take a break and then finish high school later and then go to college? What degrees did you get? I dropped out of school the day I turned 16 the legal minimum in my state.
Went back to finish high school a couple years later, then worked in a factory for a year—the most boring thing I have ever done. Lived and worked abroad for a few years in between degrees. Definitely not an efficient career path, but worked out fine. I kind of feel I have had some of my retirement earlier in life, doing exactly what I wanted to do, which is good. But keep the finance articles coming—financial savvy is not something that comes easily to me, so I could use the help.
I do believe that everything tends to work out in the end. Its not so much about what school you went to or how much it cost for you to attend , but more about what you do with that degree.
Working hard and graduating early was my goal. Mission accomplished from a large university, but even more imporatnt was the internship and job right out of college that helped me along my investment path. College is also on my mind a lot with my two young boys. How to save for their school was something readers helped me with tremendously! Went on to a local Community College and obtained my Associates degree.
Went on to be accepted to a private University in Philadelphia. Graduated with a BS and went on to work at one of the big consulting firms. Now work in management for a leading Pharma with colleagues much more impressive than I in the intelligence area … also went to much better university than me. Shawn Achor, during a TED talk, had an interesting perspective that I think applies here paraphrasing :. If you change your formula for happiness and success, you can change the way it affects reality.
All I got was a measley associates degree from a community college : And it was in business administration which did absolutely nothing for me. How did not going to a major university affect me? Cant say for sure but what I do know is that I make more money then almost all my friends that did go to college.
I know money isnt everything nor does it define success but I do think people can make something of themselves and accomplish what they want even without a college degree or education. Tell that to all the burnt out social workers, teachers and nurses out there — I suspect the percentages would be as high as investment banking.
The convo did make me think I could have made better choices with what I do for a living, but at the same time I like having a reasonable standard of living and the option of early retirement, which is not an option for most teachers and social workers.
Some of what Google does is incredibly helpful, and VCs may also be helping shape our technological landscape. No, not even close relative to careers with the main purpose of making as much money as possible. I spoke to a couple dozen teachers remember, I work as a teacher now per my first paragraph , and the level of excitement and joy is astoundingly high compared to my friends in finance, consulting, tech. But the teachers in your social circle are relatively compared to other teachers highly paid private school teachers.
There are many that live off yearly contracts and barely make more than the minimum wage. Poorer areas also mean more violence and behavioural problems from the kids. Many of these teachers who struggle to feed themselves leave the profession. Do you want public or pvt school? Can you afford pvt school? Which public school teaches you those two great subjects. Then do you want elite schooling for business development for a mega corporation, or a startup?
Your wife and kids will divorce u lol. Each move locks you in on a different course for a decade of your life. And what you want your son might not want the same as you.
I graduated with minimal debt. Retired early. A Harvard degree would have me still working to pay off loans, or to keep using my high cost degree. I would take the community college option, followed by a state 4-year school, followed by a graduate degree paid by an employer.
Then followed by early retirement. Sounds like a good plan to me! I love, love the 2-year community college option and then transferring to a 4-year state school to save money, develop maturity, and get a better idea of what you want to do with your life.
I wish I read this comment when I was choosing my college. Also, you mention that Harvard students represent the top. Sure, getting into top schools requires plenty of academic chops but admissions also considers a number of other factors.
So some talent is at your local state univeristy, etc. What is more likely true is that being remarkable in some way is a necessary condition to getting into Harvard as well as doing something great later on. Thoughts on why people bother to spend so much money and work so hard to get into Harvard? Everybody somebody. Our definitions will always differ. There are a lot of intelligent folks on this planet, far far more intelligent than a Harvard graduate.
Their circumstances do not let anyone else recognize them. Given the right environment and privileges, mankind is a lot more competitive and intelligent than a Harvard graduate. And the boy who studied under street lights and got admitted in IIT harder to get in than Harvard , with no food, is another example.
It is a start for a kid into the world of adults. The reason why parents emphasize on college. But if the kid is passionate, or talented in a certain field say, figure skating , then parents pursue that as well.
The kid must show signs of their passion, or parents remain clueless. Personal Finance, Savings, all these articles, mean a lot different to parents than a non-parent. I went to Johns Hopkins undergrad. But if I really think about it, my professional accomplishments actually ARE very impressive to I also am not super impressed with the fates of my classmates when compared to accomplished people in my social circle who went to a variety of schools, but again, I think the bar is just very high because a lot of money is being spent and expectations get inflated.
We have to get out of our bubbles. PhDs are for aspiring professors. Another words, they are the top graduates. Well done going to Johns Hopkins university. Were you able to get any scholarships?
What is it you do now for a living? Would you be happy if they followed your steps? I think about this a lot, and because I never had such guidance, I teach my kids as much as I can about different schools, career paths, and other things that I think will be helpful.
Hence, if you are smart enough to get into Harvard, I think that you are smart enough to be successful in any school. So why not save the money and use it towards something else more meaningful. I worked super hard in school at a state school. I have been successful at fortune 50 companies because I make smart decisions daily not because of what school I went to.
But I did do exceptionally well in college and had a career path vision I was able to articulate to recruiters. If you are mediocre at school you will be mediocre in life. Basically, People see who you are and how you represent yourself and respond accordingly. You might have to stop reading for at least one year so I can get all these questions and concerns out of my system!
But before you go, are you a parent? And what are your thoughts about sending your kid to public or private school? When I talk to people I am far more impressed by what they do after graduating college than I am where they went. If I had known then what I know now I would have never gone to school. At the first university I was heavily discriminated against and other students were trying to sue the joke of university because they were hiring unqualified professors who were either not certified or licensed — and TWO were exposed for stealing student work to pass it off as their own.
I trust no college and see no need for many degrees now. At the second college I went hungry, struggled to find work, and slept out of my car. I worked much harder at that college than at any time period previous to getting accepted. My own experiences were the stuff of nightmares and if I had to chose again I never would have gone to college because I was too poor and being intelligent gets you nowhere if you still make bad decisions.
I had the debt from the first university paid off after working three jobs, seven days a week for just over a year. My life was so miserable and the area where I worked forced people onto welfare due to corruption. Barely making a living and being a U. My oldest son graduated from Yale about 10 years ago. He did well there and works in finance of course he does. As one commenter noted, these elite schools attract the big companies to campus. His initial plan was medicine, but he realized he hated blood and needles and switched gears his sophomore year.
I am sure he was influenced by the campus culture to go into finance as well. Even many of the engineers wound up on Wall Street. I was upset that he chose money making over contributing to society.
He is super smart and could have gone on to do something amazing- but he likes his job and his life so who am I to argue. Burn out is high. Comparing yourself to a colleague who got a bigger bonus or a faster promotion make people miserable. The good thing is that you should be making enough to become financially independent at an early age if he saves and invest wisely.
Then he has options to do other things if you so choosers, including something that is more beneficial to society. He was always very bright, even in nursery school. He had music lessons, and went to some really interesting summer programs. So he attended summer science camp at the age of 14, went to a Johns Hopkins summer program at 15 was classmates with Mark Zuckerberg, we still have the program directory! So I guess you could say we spent a lot of money on his summer experiences.
We did the same for our 2 other children as well. I also helped him edit his college essays, and my husband schlepped him around to look at colleges from age Helps to see the prize at the end of the journey. Luckily we had the means to let him go wherever he wanted to, but he did not need much pushing; he was highly motivated.
Got it! So another words, nurture accounts a great deal! He hated it! Felt that Yale was more focused on the undergraduates. Honestly, he was number 3 in his class, number 1 if you unweighted for APs , had good, not great, scores math, verbal , tons of leadership positions at school, won a lot of high school awards, 34 on all ACT sections, played clarinet well, etc. He applied early decision which helped a lot too.
The night he got accepted, I cried, and told him he had the golden ring, and his life would never be the same. He would probably agree. Has many amazing friends he is still close to one started a magnet school! He is a real saver, and probably could retire early, but he really likes his job as of now, so who knows.
He is still single also, so if he marries, and starts spending a lot of money on houses, kids, etc. Thanks for the blog, I really enjoy reading it. Very interesting post and follow up here.
Ellen, congrats on getting your kid into Yale and the elite level of USA success. Your story here is a neat summation of why critics attack the US college system as a perpetuation of elite-level success and a near guarantee of rampant income inequality.
No wonder why students from families outside the richest top tier feel they have little hope competing against students born on third base like your son. Thought-provoking post, Sam. I have a two-sided perspective on this topic as a graduate of one of your named state schools and an Ivy League doctoral program.
Many of your observations are spot-on in my experience. When considering post-graduation outcomes for graduate schools, it also seems appropriate to assess the type of graduate program as their cash, opportunity costs, and career pathways will differ tremendously. I will say that your point on expectations rings true far more with the Ivy pedigree versus my state school experience. The conversations about prestigious pathways and being a world changer start long before graduation at the Ivy.
I chose a path entrepreneurship that is a double whammy because that is a non-traditional path for graduates in general from the school and certainly unusual for doctoral graduates, who normally go on to academic careers at an alarming rate.
If anything, Sam, I think that if you did your PhD, that would quash once and for all your dalliances with going back to the private sector and working for someone else.
My PhD experience came with weird hours, but allowed me to spend more time with my family than ever before, thus cementing my desire to have a career that gives me the flexibility to be anywhere I want, anytime I want. George W. This calls into question the overall Harvard alumni snapshot chart — are those LinkedIn profiles reflecting Harvard undergrad or both that and the Business School.
Anecdotally, my experience is that HBS is really good at picking students that will be successful regardless of where they did their undergrad. More food for thought: is going to Harvard undergrad better than going to Harvard for graduate school?
It seems that if one is a pedigree snob, one only looks at the latest degree they have achieved. If given the choice between Harvard undergrad and Harvard grad, it seems obvious Harvard grad is the better option because jobs after grad school pay better on average, across fields and undergrad is generally viewed as a first filter of ability and conformism. I like the stories of high school dropouts who go on to achieve great things such as Richard Branson.
Instead of always feeling dumb with the smart kids, I dropped all my AP classes and just coasted through the regular curriculum. Hard work and drive will always take you farther than an unmotivated, lazy smart ass. And again, how well you do in medical school is more important than the name of the medical school medical education is regulated so all med school grads receive basically the same education. Therefore, I chose the more cost efficient state medical school route.
Residencies after medical school are very competitive. So the 1 grad from a state med school will have a better chance at a competitive residency program than a doctor graduating from the middle or bottom of an Ivy League med school. I met a few pharmacists that went to Ivy league schools for their bachelors and I always felt like they wasted a ton of money.
You do not understand the point of a PhD. I can only read feedback from those with PhDs in my PhD post. Do you have a PhD? Breadcrumb Admissions Apply. What We Look For. Overview There is no such thing as a "typical Harvard student" In our admissions process, we give careful, individual attention to each applicant. Growth and Potential. Have you reached your maximum academic and personal potential? Have you been stretching yourself?
Have you been working to capacity in your academic pursuits, your full-time or part-time employment, or other areas? Do you have reserve power to do more? How have you used your time? Do you have initiative? Are you a self-starter? What motivates you? Do you have a direction yet? What is it? If not, are you exploring many things?
Where will you be in one, five, or 25 years? Will you contribute something to those around you? What sort of human being are you now? What sort of human being will you be in the future? Interests and Activities. Do you care deeply about anything—Intellectual? What have you learned from your interests?
In fact, the characters on Gilmore Girls seem so three-dimensional and real that it becomes glaringly obvious if the writers push them even a millimeter out of character. Rory Gilmore always wanted to go to Harvard and only switched choices because it behooved the writing staff to keep her in Connecticut, and therefore closer to the action Stars Hollow.
The prep school is an incubator for the Ivy League. The whole idea? Even Luke is confused. He says out loud that Rory has always wanted to go to Harvard, so she should be going to Harvard. The choice to apply horrified Lorelai.
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